Undo message and cursor display while painting

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Jake123
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Re: Undo message and cursor display while painting

Post by Jake123 »

Hello! Thank you very much for replying to my post. :)

Sorry... both in the graphic attached, and in all the text, when I say "arrow" the word is really meant to be "triangle" (as seen in the graphic, which is really not an "arrow").

1) Yes, via preferences. It is only needed there, and I (and probably other artists using Photoline) would not mind at all if by default in installation it is set as other cursor type if other users prefer it so. As I have seen that the software remembers the settings between sessions. The digital painters would change it as needed in preferences, as we are used to do.

2) Sorry, I was not precise with my explanation. I have made a graphic mock-up (I inserted it below), indeed, capturing exactly the cursor icons from certain painting application, cursors which are the least obtrusive/distracting of all the painting apps that I have used, and these give the possibility of working in all situations in painting. It would be ideal if both could be added. :)

With the triangle, of course, the active point (which paints the pixels) is supposed to be on the upper tip of the triangle.

I don't know if the borders of each icon are exactly so, as I captured it with the print-screen key. So, I don't know if there's some openGL blur or something, in that app, and if so, I don't know if those are the 'exact' pixels. But I guess something very similar would work perfectly. This has been refined through years by painters requests, so, they seem to work well for painting. :) . They both have like a white outline of one pixel or so, to be able to be seen while painting over dark colors.

Basically, one is a thin black solid triangle pointing up-left (maybe in a -45º angle, I'm not sure). The other, seems to be very few black pixels forming a circle. I have tested often cursors made of one single pixel, but that is not seen in higher resolution screens and is bad for people with poor eyesight. One of the reasons why is good to provide both cursors. The black "dot" formed by very few pixels allows for work without losing focus (it is my favorite), and very precise lines, too. The other, for people liking to see bigger cursors, yet having precision and neither being too distracting. It is also good for any user in certain situations (I use both, although mostly the tiny black circle one).
cursors2.png
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shijan
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Re: Undo message and cursor display while painting

Post by shijan »

Also near same was described very simple in earlier post https://www.pl32.com/forum3/viewtopic.p ... 404#p50404
Advanced toggles for all brush tools in Tool Settings (or in global program settings, which is simpler but slower for user to toggle) may look like this:
Show/hide real Brush (including Color, Soft edge and Opacity)
Show/hide Circle Brush Outline
Show/hide center Crosshatch


Image
PhotoLine UI Icons Customization Project: https://www.pl32.com/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6302
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Herbert123
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Re: Undo message and cursor display while painting

Post by Herbert123 »

I'd compare with Krita and Clip Studio Paint:
examples.png
One thing missing is a simple option to invert between black<-->white for the solid circle icon (dot), triangle, arrow, etc. in either app. Or that these automatically convert to either depending on the background. But I feel the dot in Krita works well enough (white circle with black outline). Still, would be good to have the option to invert that.

And yes, it would be nice to have custom settings for each drawing tool (just like CSP offers).

I don't think these options should be placed outside the cursor preferences. Once set, I never touch them again in other apps. But it IS important in that case to have the option to customize the cursor for each drawing tool in that case.
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Jake123
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Re: Undo message and cursor display while painting

Post by Jake123 »

But I feel the dot in Krita works well enough (white circle with black outline)
Maybe adding the Krita one as well ? (more options is better) Although, in my opinion, it is best a tiny solid black circle of several pixels ("dot" as in Clip Studio), and the thin black triangle (for those needing a bigger cursor, and for certain tasks) as when moving fast it is less distracting (specially in the so common 60 -75Hz refresh rate screens...Even my professional Eizo monitor has that refresh, despite being professional color and all that).

When the black dot (or tiny circle) is over dark backgrounds, as it has (I think) a tiny 1 pixel white circle surrounding it, it's yet very well seen. I have made a new composition with a lot of screenshots, pasted all in one single PNG, so that it can be seen clearly how those two cursors are seen over different backgrounds. But highly recommended to see the PNG outside the browser (downloading the PNG) and looking at it in your image viewer or Photoline at 1:1 zoom. As browsers and viewing apps can do all sort of extra blurring, specially as most often one is not seen the image in 1:1 zoom.
cursors8.png
Before posting the last reply, I carefully checked all my painting applications (if you are wondering why having purchased all these, do I want to paint with Photoline, the answer is because a lot of professional illustration projects do need as well the editing, export and many other features that a full image editor has, like Photoline) , so, I checked (again) the cursors in Corel Painter 2023, PaintStorm Studio, Affinity Photo, Realistic Paint Studio, Rebelle 7 Pro, Clip Studio Paint EX 3.0, Krita and Gimp. Indeed, the screenshot with the cursors which I am proposing and which I posted in the previous post, are both (cursors) from Clip Studio Paint. But both count on a 1 pixel white line around the shapes (invisible over white backgrounds) to be distinguished over dark backgrounds.
I don't think these options should be placed outside the cursor preferences. Once set, I never touch them again in other apps.
I agree.
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shijan
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Re: Undo message and cursor display while painting

Post by shijan »

Sure all those ideas and pretty improvements are great, but don't forget that brush engine in PhotoLine is still 8-bit only. No one will use it for serious painting or retouch until brushes will support 16 bit depth (or at least 12 bit). So it feels not logical to spend time for cursors redesign before main global problem isn't fixed yet.
PhotoLine UI Icons Customization Project: https://www.pl32.com/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6302
Jake123
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Re: Undo message and cursor display while painting

Post by Jake123 »

Well... I somehow can paint with the current ones (I might show in the gallery, later), maybe due to my style. I mean, for the meanwhile till 16bits on brushes, it's better to have the cursors than not, isn't it? As... for me the show stopper is the double ring (btw, I never need the hardness one in any app) + cross, yes or yes, while I am painting. If one paints very fast, it gets kind of annoying, making me lose focus. But maybe I'm alone in that...

I believe you and I had that conversation before... and how CSP (Clip Studio) does not support 16 bits per channel (so, then I guess it can't either have brushes in 16 bits? I am not savvy in the matter of brushes and 16 bits). I got used to the 16 bits per channel on my canvases in Affinity Photo 2.x, and I have to say it's really much better (more room for editing, less banding). But there are many very important things that I like much better in PhotoLine.

The thing is that I have done a bunch of commercial work (gigs) with Clip Studio (to be fair, maybe that engine does some kind of extra blur or blend), and all was fine, no real issues despite all being 8bits per channel, but maybe because my painterly style does not rely much on smooth gradients, or digital airbrush.... and it all gets compensated. But !... YMMV, as it depends heavily on style, I guess. I would agree that things would be better with that, although my main priority for painting is the cursors' issue (btw, I agree with your suggestions to enable/disable the rings individually, and the cross. IMO, like cursors, it only needs to be in preferences. Still, rings + cross toggling wouldn't be the ideal solution, if alone. CSP added those cursors after realizing that was the best solution).

BTW, I have found an old post in a Krita's forum of someone wanting the CSP dot (several pixels) cursor, for painting. And how Krita's 1 pixel-only cursor is too small (as this person did seem not fond of using the small white circle cursor option)
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Herbert123
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Re: Undo message and cursor display while painting

Post by Herbert123 »

shijan wrote: Sun 07 Apr 2024 23:50 Sure all those ideas and pretty improvements are great, but don't forget that brush engine in PhotoLine is still 8-bit only. No one will use it for serious painting or retouch until brushes will support 16 bit depth (or at least 12 bit). So it feels not logical to spend time for cursors redesign before main global problem isn't fixed yet.
Well, while I agree it is important to have high bit depth support for brushes (12bit minimum would be fine, 16bit perfect), comic and general digital artists have been doing just fine with Clip Studio and Painter for the past two decades ;-)

So yes, it is important to have for HDR painting/editing and for visual effects/3D comp /texturing work. But not at all important for regular print or web art. 8bit is just fine.

And the cursor is low-hanging fruit, while an overhaul of the brush engine to support 16bit is much more of an effort.

I agree with Jake123 that the lack of paint cursor control has been a fly in the ointment for me to use PhotoLine for digital inking. Not a big one, yet I'd like to see it improved somewhat.
Last edited by Herbert123 on Mon 08 Apr 2024 03:41, edited 1 time in total.
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Herbert123
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Re: Undo message and cursor display while painting

Post by Herbert123 »

Also, I prefer the black circle dot with white outline myself in CSP over Krita's white dot with a black outline.

Ideally a simple invert option would accommodate both.
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Jake123
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Re: Undo message and cursor display while painting

Post by Jake123 »

Solid takes, I agree with all that.
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Herbert123
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Re: Undo message and cursor display while painting

Post by Herbert123 »

Hey Jake123! You'll be stoked to hear that the latest beta features...

dot.png

the dot for painting! And in three different versions (more than ClipStudio or Krita).
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Jake123
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Re: Undo message and cursor display while painting

Post by Jake123 »

OUTSTANDING!!
Thank you very much for the heads up! I will be very sure to test it asap. :) :) :) 8) 8) 8)
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shijan
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Re: Undo message and cursor display while painting

Post by shijan »

Seems like problem in Windows with mouse speed if set center to "None". Also there is no any option to preview real brush sample before you actually click and start to paint. Overall i really like that i can turn off crosshatch and use only dual circle. For retouching it feels very nice.
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shijan
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Re: Undo message and cursor display while painting

Post by shijan »

By the way, those 3 new dot cursors are located in Cursors.pld file, so you can change or replace them with any image you want. Seems i need to update my icons-cursors set.
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Jake123
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Re: Undo message and cursor display while painting

Post by Jake123 »

- It works great. I am going now to purchase 24 (edit: purchased :D ) , as for this alone is worth it vs 23 (and of course for the many other improvements). Now I can paint comfortably in many different types of projects.

- Indeed, it also allows "outline only", which is very practical for certain styles of painting. I am going to use that type of cursor a lot, too. For me, the double outline was a bit too much, but some people appreciate using that, so, great, as there's options for everyone.

- I can confirm what Shijan says, that in Windows seems to be some issue with speed when "none, none" is set (useful for when working with a display tablet, but I have not tested yet with mine (I mostly work with a classic Wacom pen tablet)). Once I set it back to having some cursor, or "outline only", and restart the app, it's fast again.

- Word of warning for others, as I thought I had messed my install : you might see that the cursor does not change... Just switch to another tool, like the eraser, or marquee selection, whatever, and back to the brush and your cursor will have changed.

Fantastic work. :)
Last edited by Jake123 on Thu 25 Apr 2024 03:19, edited 2 times in total.
Jake123
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Re: Undo message and cursor display while painting

Post by Jake123 »

shijan wrote: Wed 24 Apr 2024 21:29 By the way, those 3 new dot cursors are located in Cursors.pld file, so you can change or replace them with any image you want. Seems i need to update my icons-cursors set.
That's really interesting to know. I was looking for that back in the day before making the petition. I will play with that and experiment a bit. Thanks a lot. 8)