How to move what has been lasso selected?

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Herbert123
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Re: How to move what has been lasso selected?

Post by Herbert123 »

One area in which the direct manipulation of pixels is sort-of required is creating precise retro pixel graphics. I avoid Photoline for this type of work because of having to create new layers for every single bitmap operation, such a scaling a bunch of pixels, or extending a row or column. Or just moving a couple of pixels from A to B.

It becomes very tedious to have to cut/copy and paste to new layers all the time.
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erikals
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Re: How to move what has been lasso selected?

Post by erikals »

PL
luckily it's clear that the majority of us wants this as an option...

so hope it can be fixed / added...

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bkh
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Re: How to move what has been lasso selected?

Post by bkh »

erikals wrote:PL
luckily it's clear that the majority of us wants this as an option...
I, for sure, don't want the old PL behaviour back. It was like working with an extra layer, just with a less consistent UI. Probably not what you'd want, either.

If you want to convince me (and probably others who don't use PS, which afaik includes the developers of PL), please just take the time to answer my concrete questions. If you make a screenshot video, one cannot see what you do with your mouse and keyboard.
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Herbert123
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Re: How to move what has been lasso selected?

Post by Herbert123 »

Nor do I - but it would be handy if the selection (lasso) tools would have an additional option in the tool settings to manipulate pixels directly in a bitmap layer. So, drag a lasso, and with that option turned on, PL would allow us to move and scale that selection of pixels by dragging the lasso, rotating the lasso, scaling the lasso, etc. and the pixels would be transformed.
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Re: How to move what has been lasso selected?

Post by bkh »

Still trying to figure out what you PS users want. Do you want the selection to be pasted automatically when the mouse button is released? But then you can't rotate/scale the selection? In the old PL version, you could scale/rotate the filled selection (no modifier key needed, but otoh, you couldn't change the lasso itself – the Alt key is already used to shrink a selection), and you had to double-click the selection to paste it into the layer. Instead of double-clicking, I now use "layer to selection" and "merge down" – a bit different, but not (imo) more complicated – rather less so.

If anybody is interested, PL 15.55, the last version which had floating selections, is still on the PL server:

ftp://pl32.net/133339_93333/anonftp/plx1555.dmg
ftp://pl32.net/133339_93333/anonftp/pl1555.exe

Cheers

Burkhard.
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erikals
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Re: How to move what has been lasso selected?

Post by erikals »

PL
luckily it's clear that the majority of us wants this as an option...
I, for sure, don't want the old PL behaviour back. It was like working with an extra layer, just with a less consistent UI. Probably not what you'd want, either.
Burkhard, i wrote that i wanted this as an Option
...is it that dangerous if some of us get this function as an Option ?

i'll make a new video...

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Re: How to move what has been lasso selected?

Post by bkh »

erikals wrote:Burkhard, i wrote that i wanted this as an Option
...is it that dangerous if some of us get this function as an Option ?
I'm not arguing against an option – not even against changing anything in the general behaviour of PL. (If it's generally useful, it shouldn't be an option, imo. Too many options just confuse the user, and make the program more difficult to maintain.)

I JUST WANT TO UNDERSTAND WHAT IT IS THAT YOU WANT, without having to download and install a PS trial myself. Is it too much to expect you to explain what exactly you want? As far as I am concerned, don't bother with videos. I find it hard to get any serious information out of videos. Just answer my questions.

Cheers

Burkhard.
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erikals
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Re: How to move what has been lasso selected?

Post by erikals »

PL
i'm getting a bit tired of having to explain obvious lacks... but i'll give it a shot
If it's generally useful, it shouldn't be an option, imo.
Too many options just confuse the user, and make the program more difficult to maintain.
like it or not, useful options are vital

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evren
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Re: How to move what has been lasso selected?

Post by evren »

Same way as "paint.exe" works?

Lasso is the selection before doing an action. After the "action like cut/copy/change lasso/filter etc." software let user to be free like a bird. Layers are for those ;)

A feature like that will be absolutely a nightmare for a designer. Guaranteed accidental moves.
An option like that can can sound good for users who doesn't like to use shortcuts. But keep in mind friends, every feature comes with new conflicts and performance problems. The reason I use Photoline is it's performance and strict workflow without mess. To make PL yet another bloatware will dissapoint all of us. Performance is everything when you work on huge scale works.

If it will restrict some needs I can understand but, actually this option already exists.
Create the lasso, CRTL+C / CTRL+V. That's it friends, is it hard that much?
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erikals
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Re: How to move what has been lasso selected?

Post by erikals »

PL
An option like that can can sound good for users who doesn't like to use shortcuts.
Nonsense. no one i know use more shortcuts than me...
i even write ahk scripts for workflow optimizations alone, so please, don't go there...
Performance is everything when you work on huge scale works.
and it's nothing when working on regular scale works?
To make PL yet another bloatware will dissapoint all of us.
True, so please don't do that by leaving out essential workflows.
Create the lasso, CRTL+C / CTRL+V. That's it friends, is it hard that much?
Did you read my post Wed 18 Feb 2015 03:56 at all... ?

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Herbert123
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Re: How to move what has been lasso selected?

Post by Herbert123 »

bkh wrote:
erikals wrote:Burkhard, i wrote that i wanted this as an Option
...is it that dangerous if some of us get this function as an Option ?
I'm not arguing against an option – not even against changing anything in the general behaviour of PL. (If it's generally useful, it shouldn't be an option, imo. Too many options just confuse the user, and make the program more difficult to maintain.)

I JUST WANT TO UNDERSTAND WHAT IT IS THAT YOU WANT, without having to download and install a PS trial myself. Is it too much to expect you to explain what exactly you want? As far as I am concerned, don't bother with videos. I find it hard to get any serious information out of videos. Just answer my questions.

Cheers

Burkhard.
This is how it would work:
1) create a lasso (selection)
2) when in lasso mode, moving and transforming the lasso does not affect the pixels (That is how it works in Photoline - no issues here!)
3) with the selection still active, switch to the layer tool.

4) now move the selection. The entire layer is repositioned.

Instead of moving the entire selection, it would be great if only the selected pixels within the lasso could be moved as well when we position the mouse cursor in that lasso area. And keep the transform handles for the lasso active when in layer tool mode, so any transform would directly transform the selected pixels.
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ZoltanE
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Re: How to move what has been lasso selected?

Post by ZoltanE »

Instead of moving the entire selection, it would be great if only the selected pixels within the lasso could be moved as well when we position the mouse cursor in that lasso area. And keep the transform handles for the lasso active when in layer tool mode, so any transform would directly transform the selected pixels.
+1 for that. Today I'll have to rearrange 72 pieces on an image and the extra cut, paste, move, merge down steps slow things down considerably.
evren
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Re: How to move what has been lasso selected?

Post by evren »

PL utilizes external programs support feature and works great. Simply just add paint.exe there for familiar workflow.
Anyone have a damaged keyboard which CTRL, X anv V buttons doesn't work, external keyboard can be a good option. (yes I repeat the shortcuts)

And further (can be a bit advanced feature due to level in this topic but) there is layer support. Really guys, no joke...
Different than paint.exe, PL allows you to define many movable, transformable and independently editable pieces of images (called layer), you can just click and drag freely. You can refer to help file for more "advanced" tips and tricks.

And would like to repeat again, people may "know" but I suggest to use frequently for faster work that;
The key combinations CTRL+X and CTRL+V are extremly usefull. And bonus, there is also CTRL+C which allows you to copy and move like PS do.
Those will allow you to edit and even montage hello kity images in semi-advanced level.

Who told PL can not be second editor right after paint in the path of being graphics artist?
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Herbert123
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Re: How to move what has been lasso selected?

Post by Herbert123 »

evren wrote:PL utilizes external programs support feature and works great. Simply just add paint.exe there for familiar workflow.
Anyone have a damaged keyboard which CTRL, X anv V buttons doesn't work, external keyboard can be a good option. (yes I repeat the shortcuts)

And further (can be a bit advanced feature due to level in this topic but) there is layer support. Really guys, no joke...
Different than paint.exe, PL allows you to define many movable, transformable and independently editable pieces of images (called layer), you can just click and drag freely. You can refer to help file for more "advanced" tips and tricks.

And would like to repeat again, people may "know" but I suggest to use frequently for faster work that;
The key combinations CTRL+X and CTRL+V are extremly usefull. And bonus, there is also CTRL+C which allows you to copy and move like PS do.
Those will allow you to edit and even montage hello kity images in semi-advanced level.

Who told PL can not be second editor right after paint in the path of being graphics artist?
Sorry Evren, but you sound a bit patronizing now. Often I want to quickly edit a pixel selection, extend it into a direction, or just quickly move it - without being forced to create layers. These are often quick edits and adjustments we would like to be able to make, and in any other image editor it is just a matter of a selection, and adjusting that selection with the move tool.

In Photoline there are too many additional steps involved: create selection, create new layer, adjust, merge down. It literally doubles or triples the amount of work and time.

It also makes Photoline rather cumbersome for pixel art and retro game design work - I would say almost impossible to work with, because Photoline does not offer an indexed colour mode either.

I am not saying this is bad, or anything - just that almost any other image editor is capable to do these things. It is also the reason I use specialized pixel editors for this type of work.

However, I am still convinced the selection tool ought to allow for direct pixel manipulation somehow.

We can now finally select multiple layers and scale those without the need for grouping. This is a workflow speedup. The same is true for direct transformation of selected pixels. Mind, I do love how we can easily adjust the lasso in Photoline. I just also want an option to directly manipulate the pixel selection in a layer without the extra in-between steps. It is a viable workflow improvement request for many of us PL users.

For certain types of work direct pixel manipulation through the lasso is extremely useful and a time saver. Perhaps you, Evren, are not interested in those types of jobs, but it is nonetheless sort-of essential for a quick workflow in those cases.
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ZoltanE
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Re: How to move what has been lasso selected?

Post by ZoltanE »

I ended up making a macro on my programmable keyboard.
However I still consider this a UX issue: the "select and manipulate" is one of the most common, most intuitive user interactions. I believe it's executed more often than "select and modify selection" so it should have the shorter work path. (Unless it would introduce another UX problem like inconsistency, but I think it's in the clear.)